School of the boat for 7 Jan 09 (Hydraulics)

[Darrin]

Let's keep the ball rolling with the school of the boat folks,
This weeks block of instruction is going to be on the Hydraulic system and how they work and what did they operate on a Balao..

So the first part of this one is simple, describe the hydraulic system and what it does.

[Mark Sarsfield]

I'll let someone else go this time, although I'll probably be the one answering it.

I'd like to ask the sub vets to refrain from answering these, if possible.  Drag people out of their other forums, if need be.  Some folks only read posts under their specific boat.  We need more particiaption from the n00bs (like me).

[Darrin]

ECHO...... ECHO...... HELLLO...... HELLLO...... ANYONE HERE??  IS ANYONE STILL INTERESTED IN DOING THE SCHOOL OF THE BOAT?? ECHO.....ECHO...EACHO......

Guess I can break out the nudie pics now and smile and teach this to those whom care

[Lance Dean]

I am interested still.  I'm just busy and lazy at the same time...

[Darrin]

Folks,
while most may never consider getting their hydraulics restored because they can use chain falls or a crane to get the actual equipment to where they would like it the Pamp and the COD have their systems WORKING which means that ALL of is could get it running one more time IF we have the patience and know how to do so.

Me personally I like to have all of the equipment that I work on operational instead of having to come up with a secondary method to get things to work.. with that being said IF your hydraulics haven't been opened in a LOT of years and you are going to be operating them there is a number of things that you have to consider prior to getting them to work once more.

Have I tossed this idea around on Torsk a number of times? yup damned near every time that I am up there, what that means for Torsk is rebuilding or at least tearing down most of the hydraulic system and putting it back together and then flushing it out and then getting either the IMO's running or a varient working to make certain systems work once more. Each part of the system can be ISOLATED i.e. scopes and tubes and planes so it isn't a full blown operation for those whom would like to do this it just takes a bit of work and some time to get it running once more.

SO with that being said what do the IMO pumps due and where do they get their power from???

[Lance Dean]

Here's the section of the manual on hydraulics:

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/hydr/index.htm

Looks like the IMO pump pressurizes the hydraulic system?

[emeacho]

Both IMO pups are powered from the Forward Aux DC switchboard, which is located in the Control Room aft stbd corner, via an auxiliary distribution panel FB-209 (at least on Torsk anyway).

[Darrin]

Well Lance it looks like you are the only one to come out of hiding to answer the question that was asked but not answered, your link I am sure runs us back to the hydraulic section of the fleet manual but that does not really tell us what it does.... It may break it down and give you a number of reasons why to have have the hydraulic systems working but it doesn't tell you anything about why...

For the COD and I am sure there are others out there, when you go into MANUAL mode on the Bow Planes it is through a VERY long shaft to operate them and during normal op's it is run with little problems.

To bring your 'scopes up without hydraulics on almost all of the boats requires a CRANE and all of the extra gear in the sail (or at least for the Torsk) the Snorkle Mast and the "Football" (ECM Mast) and various other things that have not worked since '68-'71 when she was decommed and then a Reserve boat until she went to Bawlmore, is a nightmare to make operational again.

There are many different loops on the hydraulic system that can be isolated and operated independantly (i.e. Torpedo Room) BTW what hydraulics are used in the 'Room's?

SO what are they and why do we NEED them... And sadly we have NOT discussed the removal and rebuilding procedures of the valves associated that may or may not be leaking in YOUR boat so that you won't have to have the drip pans or clean up the messes that are left by residual hydraulics from a past generation.

[Lance Dean]

Oh I was just posting a helpful link to help others find an answer.  I couldn't come up with a good one.

I recall hearing how hard it is to operate the bow planes manually, especially after all these years.  On the Drum, they managed to move the periscope around with some kind of hydraulic ram.  That was for the movie filming, and the periscope now points at the battleship.

[Darrin]

Lance,
you weren't wrong as to what you posted, and I applaud you for posting what you did. What VERY few boats have done is RESTORE their hydraulic systems and that started with the IMO pumps and that is what I am getting at...

Paul Farace was able to get all his hydraulic systems working first followed by Rich Pekelney on the Pampanito... While Pamp may have had their scopes move up and down first Paul was the one that brought his system up and made ready to run once more.. With that being said Paul had an advantage on most of the museum boats as his boat is still in it's ORIGIONAL config and he still maintains all of his origional hatches and IF he had to he could submerge his boat without too much damage.

SO why am I being such a pain about this school of the boat???  it is because with some work and a bit of skill EVERYONE can have their systems working once more, this isn't a F/M 38 1/8 that we are trying to rebuild nor is it a GM engine that hasn't turned in a number of years..

Had this been a real school of the boat those whom lurk here or those whom post but do not answer would be walking through the boat hand over handing every system on this boat and the COB would not be letting ANY slackers off for work or what not's...

The only thing that can be actually found here in these school of the boats is a greater respect for the boats that we work on and the knowledge that we CAN rebuild them once more to their former glory.

[etkfixr]

Since we've been idle a while I'll chip in, plus we had snow in North Carolina so they rolled up the roads and I can't do anything else anyway.  The IMO pumps, there are two, are screw-type pumps driven by 18 HP motors.  They have three screws, one driven by the motor and two idlers.  They take oil initially pressurized by the supply tank at 25 psi and boost it to 600 to 700 psi.  This oil fills an accumulator that is pressurized by air from the High Pressure air system.  The air side is pressurized to 1750 psi, the accumulator runs at a 3:1 ratio, so the oil side runs between 600 and 700 psi.
The hydraulic system powers loads such as:  Torpedo tube muzzle doors, Ballast tank vent valves (, air induction valve, engine exhaust valves (2), the capstan/ anchor windlass, Safety and negative tank floods, Safety tank vent, Sonar sound heads, Periscopes and antennas, the bow plane rigging motor and for steering and diving planes control.  Whew.
There are several loops.  Service forward does the forward muzzle doors, capstan/windlass and the sonar sound heads.  Service aft does the after tube doors and the engine exhausts.  There are two manifolds at the COW station for the induction valve, safety and negative tanks, and the ballast tank vents.  The control handles have different shapes to help the COW tell by feel in the dark.  Also, one of them is at rest in a different position than the others.  Anybody want to take a stab at that?
Oh yeah, some of the steering controls don't run on shafts.  If you lose normal power you can shift to an emergency configuration that turns the control wheel (called a telemotor)l into a hydraulic pump.  I understand that is what the fold out handcranks are for, so you can spin it like the devil when in emergency.

PS  You guys are so incredibly lucky to have toys that are just the right size.  The battleship I work on is so big that I can't hope to get much of anything running both for lack of time and lack of resources.  Heck, the gun turret hydraulic motors take 440 VAC, three phase at 600 amps each.  Our whole shore power feed right now is 600 amps, I can't even hope to run one.

[Darrin]

Lance and ET you two have hit the ball out of the park...   I made the reference to the manual bow planes because of the COD, she still HAS HER's she was never modified to have a hydraulic backup and to see the VERY long shaft running from Control to the Fwd Room was humbling and at times painfull knowing that the procedure for running those had to be practiced and quite often so the Planesmen probably were very strong at the end of their training schedule and I can only hope that it was never used but seeing the depth charge damage to the COD a few months ago I am VERY sure that they had to use them in manual mode.

Remember folks, while we struggle to learn these systems that are now considered out dated and obsolete, the men of a different generation had to learn these systems while taking them to war (with the exception of the Marlin,Dolphin).. and those whom knew these systems are leaving us at a very quick rate these days and many don't remember exactly what everything did (lord knows that I couldn't do the qual board over again on the Honolulu today without a LOT of walk through's on a boat that doesn't exist anymore)

SO with that being said please ask for help in your local areas for subvet's to come and help out, if nothing more then to record their time on their boats to go into the Nat'l archives and you may find out that the nice quiet old guy down the street was qualified submarines also and may or may not be pissed off at the previous management that had your boat, or the guy that finally wants to open up about his life onboard a submarine what to him feels like a life time ago.

[etkfixr]

Thanks Darrin.  Anybody want to take a stab at the two questions I left?  There is a three valve manifold at the COW station.  What are the shapes of the handles?  One valve is out of sequence from the others.  The other handles point outboard in their normal at rest position but this one is different.....why?  Thank you America, and good night.  Terry

[Lance Dean]

Thanks Darrin.  Anybody want to take a stab at the two questions I left?  There is a three valve manifold at the COW station.  What are the shapes of the handles?  One valve is out of sequence from the others.  The other handles point outboard in their normal at rest position but this one is different.....why?  Thank you America, and good night.  Terry

Is this what you're talking about, bottom left-ish?



I wish I could recall the story about these handles.  Didn't some sub sink because someone pulled the wrong handle in the dark or something?

[Mark Sarsfield]

We had quite a disucssion on the hydraulic system under the Batfish posts some time ago.  We're slowly understandingt he enormity of getting anything on the boat looking good and running again... well some of us are.   Some day we'll get to this, but we need reliable wiring onboard, first.