set your restoration date

[Paul Farace]

Yoooooooo heeey, now wait a minute here... you guys better not be talking about the VHF whip antenna tray on the SD mast!!!  That is CORRECT for fleet boats that came out of refits after March 1945!!!   

Ugly? It's a matter of opinion... who the hell gave anyone of us the right to say anything on a sub is ugly!!! !!!  I used to think that all fleet subs in their pre-guppy states were ugly spitkits full of rails, wires, open masts, etc. And that only Guppys and Nukes were pretty... now I know better!  For shame! 

Seriously guys... this is where a curator is needed. And his or her decisions are not based on democratic principles, hell NO! This is not something you vote on. Rather it is done based on a realistic evaluation of the situation, regarding money -- MONEY!!!! and resources (like volunteers who rarely show up, welcome to the club guys. It's just a fact of life and you have to accept it and work around it.).   Often, it is best to do NOTHING!!! if by doing something you are doing the wrong thing, like removing a valid improvement made to fleet subs that allowed them to communicate using a VHF whip instead of the long wires exclusively.
It would be aking to removing your Type 8 search periscope because it was fat and ugly!!! 

By doing little or no topside changes you can have an accurate, near perfect late, non-guppied Fleet sub (modified for public tours that is).  The forward gun deck lip or overhang was removed to "streamline" the CT when the guns were removed. The lip can be replaced, along with any extensions to the aft end of the CT that may have also been removed at the same time for the same reason. Then put a 27-foot whip antenna on the whip tray you were trying to remove! It belongs there!  The 40mm guns and 5 in gun can be found!!!  You wouldn't put a flate screen TV in a 1956 CHEVY restoration now would you? Or more correctly, you wouldn't put a 1938 tube radio in your 2008 Lincoln Navigator? So why would you put 1944 parts on a 1952 USS BATFISH?  Fact is, any post-war mods on Batfish were probably just late 1945 mods, as was done to COD in 1952 -- that is they brought her up to the standard March 1945 fleet sub configuration in 1952 as a way of saving money --- they didn't bring her up to 1952 standards, which would have required a Guppy mod of some sort, along with interior changes.

Appoint a curator, give that person the authority to decide what the boat should look like. Removing a piece of historic fabric is not the way to go. COD lost a smattering of such things to our WWII subvets who didn't know what they were doing... they were trying to make their work load easy by cutting and shitcaning anything that might require paint and de-rusting... welll carry that forward far enough and you end up with an empty steel tube.

There are lots of fun, easy, and informative resources on basic ship curation. And lots of us willing to help.

Paul

(I'll shoot the first sunavabitch who approaches that sacred sub with a cutting torch!!! YOU HEAR ME!!!!?) 
 -- that wan't too over the top, was it?

[Lance Dean]

LOOK OUT!  PAUL'S GOT A GUN!!   

[Fred Tannenbaum]

Yeah, a Mark 40, 5-inch, .25-caliber! 

[Mark Sarsfield]

LOL!  I don't remember seeing the platform in any of the late '45 photos of the Batfish when she was saling into SF Harbor, but if it's a late-war refit design, then we'll leave it there.  We definitely appreciate your 2 cents, Paul.  It will continue to save us a lot of work and from destroying something that should be saved.

Like I said in the fluorescent lighting post, the more that I find out about fleet boats, the more that I realize that the Batfish went through very few mods after the war.  They pretty much kept her running as-is through her late 60's decommissioning - minus the gun removals.

Btw, we do have the AA guns mounted.  The 5" will make her complete in that respect.  Other than the deck, paitning, and the 5" gun, the last remaning restoration externally will be setting up the long-wires again (and adding outer doors tothe tubes).

[Rick]

As the Park Maneger, I am the curator.  I open this question to pole opinions.  The final say falls in my lap.  The reason that I opened this pole to begind with is to eliminate many of the arguments that are developing now.   I am not into willy nilly changes and mods to the submarine of musum.  This take it as it comes attitude habe been the SOP for the Batfish too long.  It is going to stop.  With a target restoration date I can start saying yea or ney to any portential modifications.   This is also the reason I sent the previous email this last week.

For example,  We will not be moving the AC units.  they are installed using exhisting plumbing to move them now would be a major overhaul of a system that is already in place.  This is just one example sf a post war mod that will not and cannot be changed. 

This is a 65 foot boat with a 12 acre park that needs to be taken care of.  If you intrest lies in the boat is also lies in the park and Museum.  We are a package deal.   As the Park Manager I take everyones opinions into consideration as I am doing this for you and the vets.   I have been given the authority to make the final decision on all projects.

[Mark Sarsfield]

Agreed on all.  I'm just an idea guy.  I'm in a learning process and I don't mind having my ideas shot down.

[MWALLEN]

This is a 65 foot boat

Did all the rain shrink it?

[Paul Farace]

rain shrinkage, or the rust was far, far worse than any of us suspected!   

Good to hear that BATFISH is in capable hands. Over the years I have talked with a wide range of folks who either claimed responsibility or in fact had that responsibility, and nothing seemed to happen in a positive sense.  The good news is that finally, 65 years on, most of the boats are being recognized by a small group of energetic people as the true treasures they are.  And not subvet clubhouses just for vets, who could do anything (and did) they pleased.

OH the horror stories I have seen over the past 32 years!!!  I need electroshock therapy to sleep at night (and lots of pills... pills, and more pills  )

Without access to the records, I would have to guess that BATFISH ended the war with whatever late-war modifications she had at a shipyard. After VJ Day the Gatos remained in whatever state they ended the war in and were not modernised unless they were recomissioned for some purpose -- SSK or foreign service... but the thick-skinned Balaos were too valuable and most were expected to be Guppized. But the USN soon discovered that the Guppy process was becoming waaaay too expensive with each batch of boats going into the shipyards... even when less expensive Guppy versions were ordered, including the fleet snorkel mod boats like TORSK.  BATFISH avoided the Guppy program somehow (thankfully)... probably because of soaring costs and the increasing need for nuclear subs. So she was given a dockside "streamlining" as in cutting down the gun deck overhangs, etc. Not pretty, but reversable if desirable. Subs kept in service after VJ day were given a late 1945 mod antenna rig (VHF whip antenna tray, etc.) to keep them up to date while awaiting more extensive modernizations. I am sure any 1946-era pics of BATFISH would reveal the presence of the whip tray.

Here is a not so crazy thought... since she is aground, it would not be that difficult someday to dig under her, set keel block pilings in place, and then excavate around them to "get her up and out of the mud' like ALBACORE ... and since my dreams have not buget limitations, once her hull is coated, the boat could be surrounded by a cofferdam and man-made lake that could be filled and drained when needed so she could look like she was afloat!  But until then, we have to keep the old girl looking nice and finding the missing goodies...   

Like I said, the pills help with the "creative thinking"   

PF

[Mark Sarsfield]

We've batted around the man-made pond idea with the boat resting on blocks.  It would definitley be the best of both worlds.  Easy maintenance and a realistic setting.  Money is still the issue. 

In my humble opinion, the boat will have to be floated just to get the blocks put in place, anyway.  Once afloat, I would use heavy equipment to pull her off to one side of the basin, lay the blocks with a crane (and maybe divers assisting) and then pull her back into position.  The water level would have to be high enough to float her over the blocks and then drain it to get her to settle down.  The blocks wouldn't have to be very high, either.  Just high enough for access under the keel.

Yeah, I haven't seen too many mods to Batfish other than the Navy hacking away the guns and mounts.  Just about all of the internal equipment is vintage 40's gear, including the radios - the hams brought some new stuff on board for their use.  There is a 1960's loud speaker that was installed in the CT, but the CT's main problem has been looting.  Lots of gauges and black boxes have grown legs and walked.  Thank God the WCA sound gear and SS-2 radar were too heavy to move.   

[Rick]

Sorry MarkA

65 year old boat 311 feet long.   

Paul,
Thank you for being understanding...